Ryan Lee

Interesting topic. Gets lots of people voicing strong opinions... which is a good thing.

Hi Ryan.... it's now been almost two weeks since I first contacted your support department & still no-one has answered my question.

I put this comment in here 3 days ago and have had no response from anyone.

I'm posting it again now. Please can someone get back to me with an answer.
I've had a request in to you Ryan about one of your programs that I'd like to sign up for. The $1.00 for 30 days program. My question was - where are the terms & conditions? It mentions them but I couldn't find them anywhere on your site? Basically, I wanted to know that I'm not somehow signing up for a 12-month contract. I sent in a request to your support team about 5 days ago but have yet to receive an answer on this question. I'm a little worried that your support team don't take phone calls. Why am I worried? Because using the support email is taking incredibly long to get an answer to a simple question.... it's now over 5 days since my original request and I still do not have an answer to my question. I want to be a customer, I just need some clarification. So... why is your support staff taking so long to get me an answer to a very simple question? Also... can you show me where the terms & conditions of your continuity program are on your website? I can't find it. Tks!

You are not signing up for a 12 month contract. Is like any other membership site.

The 1 dollar 30 day trial Is 3 things: 1-All the free stuff (dvds, and bonuses) 2-The RR report physical newsletter and 3- access to the inner circle (more bonuses and video content that's not on youtube).

You get billed $97 a month after 30 days, cancel anytime. (that's what the offer says on the website).

I don't work for Ryan, I've been his customer since 2001 and this is the first time his customer service has been a mess. My guess is that they're handling all the cancelations before the month ends and then take care of the rest.

You are right, there are no terms and conditions, only what the page says. What the page says is what it is.

Hmmm
Interesting. I have a "forced" continuity program as per Russel Brunson's Micro C course. However, my sales page EXPLICITLY states at least 3 x that they're getting into a continuity program- on my video, in the text and at the checkout it says "7 Secrets CD for $9.95 shipping and handling + 14 day trial into Membership Club- thereafter $67/mo for 6 months"
Do you think that's ok?
I also tell them they can cancel at any time, no questions asked and all they need to do is send me an email (or they can directly cancel their subscription from inside paypal)

Its a brand new product...so I am a little unsure
Any help would be appreciated!

sales page is at http://putyourmlmbizonline.com/getthecddirect.php

Well, if done right (meaning upfront, obvious, out in the open) forced continuity surely was a great model, but keep in mind that since this applies to all Google advertisers, everybody will have to adjust to it, and thus it's again equal opportunity.

I've had a request in to you Ryan about one of your programs that I'd like to sign up for. The $1.00 for 30 days program. My question was - where are the terms & conditions? It mentions them but I couldn't find them anywhere on your site? Basically, I wanted to know that I'm not somehow signing up for a 12-month contract. I sent in a request to your support team about 5 days ago but have yet to receive an answer on this question. I'm a little worried that your support team don't take phone calls. Why am I worried? Because using the support email is taking incredibly long to get an answer to a simple question.... it's now over 5 days since my original request and I still do not have an answer to my question. I want to be a customer, I just need some clarification. So... why is your support staff taking so long to get me an answer to a very simple question? Also... can you show me where the terms & conditions of your continuity program are on your website? I can't find it. Tks!

unh, "forced" ? most of them though are clear, they say and you will be entered in xxx, can opt out whenever you want etc..

That said, thanks for the clarity of the video and the "inside info" on Google..

You are really amaster at the short sweet and really useful!

Hi,

This post is quite long, but I hope you'll find it useful.

I thought I'd share my opinion on what I believe to be the best approach:

If you take a look at slide #76 from module 3 'Continuity King' available in the 'Bonuses' section (sorry if you're not an Inner Circle member, this won't be available to you) you will see one way of being transparent.

It would be extremely hard for anyone to get back to you stating they had no idea they were being enrolled into a continuity program if it was included on the checkout screen when purchasing a $1 trial or whatever offer you initially make.

So the FIRST item on the checkout page would be the $1 14-day trial, the SECOND item on the checkout page would be the 'continuity program' at $29.95/month, as an example.

You could be even more transparent if you made it so the customer would have to check a box to include the continuity program with the $1 trial, etc. I believe it is more ethical to ask people to 'opt-in' than to 'opt-out' of an offer you want them to take.

Here's what Sylvie Fortin has to say about 'Forced Continuity':
..........................................................................................................................................................
"Forced continuity is as ugly today as it ever was, and it isn’t getting better! There is a lot of confusion about continuity, and it’s really a shame because it is so obvious to me the differences between the different types of continuity, that I seriously don’t understand why people aren’t “getting it”.

So, what exactly are the different types of continuity?

There are three types, and they are very different from one another. One of these is ethical and a perfectly legitimate way to sell products. The second is still technically ethical, but can be easily misused and can also be handled very badly. Usually, there is no good reason to use the second method when there are better ways to present an offer. The third is definitely NOT legal, or ethical, and this is the one I have serious problems with you using!

'Continuity' is, quite simply, a method of delivering product on a continuous basis, usually monthly, where the customer is automatically charged a fee to access the product(s). Everything is transparent and there are no nasty surprises. The customers know up front that they will be billed monthly (or annually, or whatever) and they are able to cancel at any time when they wish to stop receiving the product. There may or may not be a free trial associated with this type of offer. Sometimes, a lower priced trial is available, for example “Your first month will only be $1 and after that, you will be billed $X each month until you cancel”.

'Forced Continuity' is when the customer is presented with an offer for Product A, usually where Product A is the sole focus of the offer. Product A is presented with an irresistible price point, almost always One Dollar. (There’s a reason they have to pay for Product A, and we’ll come to that in a moment)

Meanwhile, the vendor’s reason for making this irresistible offer is to lure the customer into “trying out” Product B, which is actually a monthly membership for something entirely different. By accepting the offer for Product A, they MUST agree to accept Product B as part of the package. Usually, Product B is bundled as a “free bonus” that is automatically included when they get Product A.

Typically, the customer is able to cancel Product B after trying it out. It is the customer’s responsibility to remember to cancel it before the trial period is finished.

The reason the vendor must charge something for Product A is because they need the credit card in order to process payments automatically for Product B. Without this critical piece of data right at the beginning, the vendor must follow up with an upfront offer for Product B later on, which reduces this entire model to a very simple Continuity offer as shown in the first example.

Sleight of Hand Continuity (or Hidden Continuity) is a slightly different process than Forced Continuity. It is truly evil and is very illegal, at least in North America.

Here’s how this works...

Just as in the example of Forced Continuity above, the customer is presented with an offer for Product A, usually where Product A is the sole focus of the offer.

Almost everything is identical to the Forced Continuity model, except for ONE BIG DIFFERENCE!

The difference lies in its complete lack of transparency to the customer. The agreement the customer accepts has hidden the offer for Product B so carefully in the fine print, that the vendor is essentially HIDING his true motives.

In other words, the vendor does not want his customer to even know he is distracting the customer with one hand while slipping in the hidden offer behind his back.

So, he carefully disguises the wording of the second offer in tiny print or hides it within a long paragraph somewhere on the sales page, hoping that his customer will never realize what hit him until it is too late and the customer gets billed.

Typically, the vendor is acutely aware that there are certain types of people who almost never check their credit card statements, or more specifically, they are aware that many people fail to check each line item on their bills. These people open the statement, pay the minimum payment, and toss it in the file, never checking to see if every line item is accurate.

Vendors who use these tactics usually take it one step farther into NastyLand. Not only are they counting on customers who fail to notice the monthly charge, they also make it next to impossible for people to cancel the billing at all. Their customer service number doesn’t work (or is never monitored), the vendor doesn’t reply to emails, and they are mysteriously missing when any attempt to cancel is made.

These guys are outright con artists and are giving us all a very bad name!

So, now that you understand the difference between these types of continuity offers, let’s dig a bit deeper and explore how it is being done online these days, and what you should be doing differently (as both a vendor and a consumer)

To The Marketer Who Sells Using Forced or Hidden Continuity...

Let me guess... you talked to a buddy of yours who sells using forced or hidden continuity and he made a bunch of money so you thought it would be a terrific idea, right?

Or you watched a big name marketer sell something with one of these methods and you saw that he made a bunch of money and you thought you’d get rich too.

But here’s where you went completely wrong, and I promise you’ll kick yourself in the head for not thinking of it first...

There was a way better way of selling your continuity program and you completely missed the freakin’ boat!

To really get into this, let me ask you a question...

Are You Ashamed Of Your Continuity Offer?

If you aren’t ashamed of what you’re selling, then why the hell are you acting like you are? Sheesh!

The way you are coming off to your customers is freakin’ stupid and completely unnecessary!

I mean, holy crap, you’re acting as if your continuity offer is something that NEEDS to be slipped in the back door, when if you really stand behind your products you would proudly yell from the rooftops that your product is the most awesome thing in the world and you are proud to sell it!

Stop acting like a snake oil salesman and your customers will become your best evangelists instead of publicly flogging you!

OK, ready for the simple solution that was staring at you the whole time but you were too busy being greedy to see it?

Here’s a simple outline that should help you get it, as viewed from your customer’s perspective:

1. Your customer visits your website.
2. Sees Product A price is only $1.
3. Continuity Product B is mentioned but customer doesn't notice.
4. Customer receives both Product A and Product B and thinks he got a surprise bonus.
5. 30 days passes...
6. Customer spots charge on his/her credit card.
7. Customer is furious and decides never to buy from you again, and decides all marketers are scum.

Now, let’s demonstrate the super simple way you could have done it without pissing off your customers.

Same products, different approach:

1. Your customer visits your website.
2. Salesletter is entirely focused on the value of Product B (the continuity offer)
3. Bonus Product 'A' is not mentioned until the download page.
4. Customer receives both Product A and Product B and KNOWS he got a surprise bonus.
5. 27 days later passes...
6. You send an automated notice that the customer will be billed in 3 days and you give the customer at least 2 ways they can cancel before being billed. You ALSO tell your customer that there will be a surprise in his mailbox with substantial value each month he remains a customer.
7. Customer spots charge on credit card, but fully expected it and is looking forward to getting the bonus you promised.
8. Customer is happy with you and your products and has now been trained that you like giving valuable surprise bonuses to your loyal customers. Now you're a hero instead of a pariah!

OK, so now that you’ve seen how easy it could have been, please listen to your customers and do it right next time!

There really is no freakin’ reason to do it the bad way ever again. Be proud of your offers! Give value to your customers. Give them surprises and be completely transparent!

It’s not that hard to make money! So stop making us all look like scammers!

I know, I know, you didn’t mean for it to go so wrong. I’m not saying you tried to piss people off. I’m saying you didn’t think it through clearly enough and it could have been better for you and your customers.

Yeah, yeah, you made a ton of sales that first month, right?

So what!?

How much money you LOST is absolutely impossible to calculate, but here’s a clue.

You lost a bunch of subscribers who will never receive another email from you again and will never again trust you enough to give you their email address.

You pissed off a lot of people who will never really 100% trust your products again, and may never spend another dime on your products or on your affiliate recommendations.

You pissed off your JV partners who may never promote anything for you again.

You caused your JV Partners to lose their subscribers and customers who got mad at them for recommending your offer in the first place.

And for what? One shining moment when it looked like you made a temporary profit?

I have news for you... it really is not worth it!

Sylvie Fortin
.........................................................................................................................

I'm of course going to work on perfecting the ethical 8 step approach above. Focus on my continuity program initially, then hit them with the bonus, Product A, which in my case would be a $1 14-day trial which can be extended to 28-days if they become active in the forum once joining my program (Tim Kerber tactic).

Test, test, test, but above all make sure you're testing ethical marketing methods.

Chris Curwen

I totally agree Ryan that forced continuity is pretty crappy these days especially with what all those stupid CPA marketers have been doing.

However, and I could totally be wrong here... if you so clearly disclose the continuity you really can't get in trouble and I don't think Google will penalize you. But if you hide it in the terms and conditions and make the link to terms like size 5 font then you're asking for it.

I completely stopped forced continuity because of the support hassell. People don't read sales letters these days because all my forced continuity people said they never saw my disclosure that was in a bright red box!

And I've actually been having more success just selling my membership site straight up.

Hey Dan,

And how have you introduced your $1 14-day trial (if you actually use a trial offer?)?

Regards,

Chris Curwen

Hi Ryan

1) There's a free upsell script at http://www.1clickupgrade.com/ and it also demonstrates a way to ethically incorporate MC into the order process in a full Google/FTC friendly way.

2) If people have heard of 1ShoppingCart, there's a series of webinars on their version of Upsell Express at http://www.shoppingcarttraining.com/shopping-cart/

3) And you can see my approach to proving the value of a free CD/DVD at http://thebrainteacher.com/thankyou.html without opting in to anything.

Thanks
Jonathan Crabtree
http://TheBrainTeacher.com

Hey Ryan, Jonathan, and Everyone.

This is HUGE topic and one well worth discussing.

----------------------------
My Approach
----------------------------

As I revamp my sites, in preparation to re-launch them after having they'd been "hacked" I am adding "optional continuity" because I personally enjoy having the option of buying the products/services that I find valuable. Have I bought goods/services in forced continuity? HECK YES! Will I continue to? Only with people who I know, like, and trust. That's because like most people, I have been duped by dishonest marketers, using "forced continuity" who want you to contact them to cancel the continuity, but when you email them, and called the telephone numbers they provided, they don't respond...

Giving an "option" to people let's you know whether or not you really have a worth-while product when someone "checks" the little box to add your product... That particular action says, "Hey, this looks pretty good... I'll give it shot!" That's all that any of us can ask for... Right?

--------------------------------------------------------
Krazy Example (that's right with a "k")
--------------------------------------------------------

Hiding your "Forced Continuity" program is just like having a Member of Sam's Club or Costco swipe his/her membership card at the little table where the Sr. Citizens give you the "lost leader" samples to snack on, as you shop before actually giving you the snack. This is done (with the hope that you'll like the sample so much that you'll go to the shelf and buy that actual snack.)

Imagine this same scenario with the steps in full detail:

1. Sam's or Costco Member walks through the store and smells taste snacks cooking :-)

2. The Member approaches the Employee to get a taste FREE snack...

3. The Employee tells the member, "Okay swipe Your Membership Card and you can have a FREE
snack."

4. The Member swipes his/her card...

5. The Employee gives the Member a snack and a little paper napkin that explains the rules and
conditions that govern the "continuity program" that the Member will has unwittingly signed up
for, to receive a box of these snacks each month for $7.95 and that the Member must come into
the store each month to pick up the snacks. Moreover, the Member's card will be
charged $7.95 each month until the Member writes a letter to the store manager to cancel the
monthly snacks...

6. The Member eats the snack, and throws away the napkin that has the "forced continuity" rules
written on it.

7. The Member goes home and a month passes by and he/she notices a $7.95 charge on his/her
card. The Member calls, to inquire but is told that he/she must write a letter to the Store
Manager to cancel a program that the Member unwittingly signed up for...

8. The Member goes to Sam's or Costco and is pissed because he/she is not given a refund for the
$7.95 that was deducted from his/her card...

9. The Member considers whether to keep his/her membership with Sams' or Costco

10. The store doesn't care because they have soooooo many unsuspecting Members on their
"forced continuity" that most of them WON'T EVEN NOTICE the $7.95 charge, and some won't
care, because there are lots of Employees giving away lots of snacks, throughout the store...

AND....

11. If the Member doesn't know about the continuity, he/she certainly won't know to go into the
store and pick up the snacks that he/she is entitled to, thereby giving the store a little extra
inventory to sell each month, until the Member finds out and complains...

Now yes, that is a little extreme, but imagine how you would feel if you were the unsuspecting Member...

----------------------------
Our Man Ryan :-)
----------------------------

I don't know if EVERYBODY realizes this or not, but Ryan has given us a GIGANTIC amount of value with his "forced continuity" model in the "Inner Circle" membership. He continues to give of himself and share tremendous "actionable content" whenever he can...

Overall, the manner in which Ryan delivers his content allows his true spirit to shine through, resulting in a "fresh and honest" approach to teaching and learning... Ryan is an educator, leader, and overall successful "Good Guy" (originally from New York), who actually cares about OUR success. This particular video he produced, although short in duration, is very powerful because it is meant to start a discussion that is needed in Internet Marketing, regarding "transparency" and "product honesty"...

----------------------
"1ClickUpgrade"
------------------------

I actually have the "1clickupgrade" software that you mentioned Jonathan. I have not tried it out, yet, but it appears to really be simple to use. I have had a great deal of contact with the tech dept, for that product, and they are always, always, always very prompt, knowledgeable, and curteous when answering my questions about the "1clickupgrade" software.

As a matter of fact, I requested that they provide a "step-by-step video tutorial" on setting up the
sequence of preparing the offer pages for customers, to add more value, but that hasn't come yet. However, they did provide full "step-by-step" directions on how to add the pages and "add to cart buttons" that make the process a little easier to understand...

NOTE: This "1clickupgrade" software is a "pre-sell" option, that is used BEFORE you capture your customer's credit card information... And according to the tech folks for the company, you can only use this "1clickupgrade" one time, for 1 offer. I'm going to play around with it a bit and see if it can be used more than once....

Does anyone know if this is the same situation for 1Shopping Cart? Please let me know.

-----------------------------
End of My Rambling
-----------------------------

Thanks everyone for indulging me. I really get interested and take action when something this important is being discussed.

Again, thanks Ryan :-)

Michael

"Keep On, Keeping On..."

1ShoppingCart.com's Upsell Express is a Post-Sale upsell/downsell engine, and not a script. Upsell Express allows you to create multiple offer pages, and create a sales funnel for your customers after they check out.

Every offer they accept is billed immediately, the customer never has to check out again, and the original purchase is never endangered; say "goodbye" to cart abandonment!

Upsell Express also includes split testing for your sales funnels, and performance analytics to track the success of your upsells and downsells.

Thanks for the info, Cliff!

I'll check their product out and see what it's all about. I know that
the "butterfly marketing 1 click upsale" software is very complicated,
so I want something that's easier to get set up. The "1Shopping Cart"
sounds like it will work out.

Again, thanks for the info.

Mike ...

Re: Clive's comment --The only constant is change, and to stay in business you must be flexible and change also. That is not being hypocritical --its being a smart, responsible biz person. Like in martial arts --you can resist and waste energy, or use the direction of force to your advantage and move with it.
Watching the direction Google is going--time to adjust the sails...

Hi Ryan

I really appreciate this insight! Thank you.

Many people I trust have been promoting the Russell Brunson Micro-Continuity program which is based around forced continuity - even if it is totally clear and up-front.

Do you think this 'MC Google Slap' is why Mike Filsaime is changing his focus to recurring billing software type services?

And more importantly, does that mean we now need to sell the benefits of continuity with a 'One Time Offer' after they've ordered a free CD? That may totally change the economics of M-C...

You identified a major potential issue... so how will YOU market your business from this point on? And importantly, what is the ideal solution for the order form? Would you suggest 1Shoppingcart now they have just released an upsell component? I like many have been planning on starting off with an Aweber/PayPal solution.

As usual your mentorship is greatly respected and I look forward to some speedy ideas to help your loyal fans!

Best wishes,
Jonathan Crabtree
P.S. Living in Australia I believe there is another potential legal issue for which I've developed a powerful solution that converts another potential legal time-bomb into major selling sizzle! If you give away a free CD/DVD make sure you also sell it on eBay for the Suggested Retail Price! You can see how I implement this on my beta site which also features many squeeze page tricks (and no I don't sell anything but mind and brainpower stuff - so I'm not prospecting for business with this comment.

I like your idea of selling on Ebay. Now, for the criticism :-), I agree with the discontinuation of force. continuity, for two reasons. 1, the "time limit" is so vastly different, for every site. 2, it forces you to track the date, to be sure you don't exceed it, if you decide you aren't interested. It's not dishonest, but not really honest, either.
My preference is that after 30 days, or whatever, you send a e-mail asking if they want to join, and pointing out the benefits, again.Then, if they say no, offer the chance at a later date (min 60 days), to ask again. Asking _only_ if they say "contact me again in NN days."
You want to keep them, not drive them away.

Hi I've been caught by a couple of forced continuity programs by big names when they have not made it clear that there is a continuity program. Sadly most of the free & shipping promo's are forced continuity but surely if they are happy with the value of what they are sending you then they could give an option to purchase whatever the upsell was at a later stage after you have seen whatever the initial offer was. Sadly some of these great initial offers are just well marketed crap to get you into parting with your credit card details.

Thanks for the video. I don't like the "sneaky" Forced Continuity programs. However, any offer that CLEARLY states the FC component is not, in my opinion, unethical. Ryan, I am a Inner Circle member and felt that you have always been very clear and ethical in your promotions - not to mention the fact that you give far more value than you charge. Whoever "Clive" is, he simply doesn't know what he is talking about.

- Dr. George

I actually like your force continuity and others. I get so many products and bonuses everytime someone does it. How can you give stuff for free and get new paying customers at the same time? send the adwords traffic to another page but keep the continuity program : p.

BTW I don't think you will stop doing force continuity Ryan, as long as we get a lot freebies, I don't mind.

Christina Cosmetics has made a lot of ex-customers angry over their forced continuity program...they hide it in small print and worse, have developed a reputation for having horrible customer service. I had to cancel a credit card just so they would stop billing me--they wouldn't return my phone calls!

IMHO, when customers feel they are in control and can make the choices they want, they are more apt to be open to hearing from you and/or returning to your site or business. The credibility issue is huge, and when someone feels manipulated by you they will see you as less credible.

So let's get this straight: you've made bocoop cash with forced continuity but, now that it's recognised as major sneaky and regarded by everyone including Google as frickin' unethical, foot in door, BS leaning towards fraud you advise against it? Riiiiiight!

Got a few issues Clive?? I've never seen Ryan do sneaky, he doesn't have the time, nor needs to"", from what I've seen. Go attack those that really deserve to be gotten out of their dark little corners, and leave this guy alone. He's straight and is being straight here with you and us..

Wow.

I have been a client of Ryan Lee for over 5 years. Have never commented on anything, just read. You actually got me riled up enough to comment. That's saying something.

You are out of line with this comment. If you have ever purchased anything from Ryan in terms of forced continuity you cannot even call it forced. It states everywhere, at least 3 times, that you will be charged in a month X amount of dollars if you do not cancel before then. THAT is not forced. What Google is really speaking about are companies that bury the charge in pages of small print that require a CIA agent with binoculars to find it. It's outrageous. Some of them even force you into it if you just provide your email to them for "special offers" and then put you through the ringer to cancel.

Second, he said he is moving toward optional now because the industry is moving that way. And honestly, how can he recommend it to us if he hasn't tried it himself. I would think something was up if he gave us this warning and then said 'but I'm going to continue on.'

I am not sure where you were going with your comment but it wasn't effective. Sarcasm on a site like this is misplaced and you are clearly misinformed. I'm going back into lurk mode. I hope you do, too.:o)

Sorry Clive - but you are wrong, my friend.

First, I have made a majority of my income without using forced continuity. I only used it on a handful of programs.

Second, it can still work and be done correctly. It's only unethical and sneaky if the person does not know they are being rebilled. Just check any acai berry or most risk-free CPA offers and they bury the rebills in the terms and conditions.

-Ryan

Ryan- Great post, great reply. As you know here at Brian Tracy International we just launched our first continuity program. And once we started getting feed back that people did not know they were going to get charged after the first month, we quickly re-evaluated everything. OUr shopping cart completely changed. We make it well know and mention it many times that they will be charged after 30 days. We of course give refunds to everyone that was not aware. But I think we people are saying here in the comments is right on in the fact that we all need to make it BOLD, or CHECK BOX, or giving them heads up a few days before their 1st charge. The first month of full billing for us just hit yesterday and we had a great retention rate, only a few wanted refunds which is normal. We will continue to work on our system. Thanks for all your help and your teachings! James@BrianTracy.com

Ryan,

You should know by now you can't please everyone, especially guys named Clive, or so it seems. I have a question: I use Pay Pal only right now, so if I want to create optional continuity on my site, I have to create another pay button.

I'm using forced continuity now. What I want to know is would a shopping cart be easier to set up optional continuity in? Maybe like a tick box or something. Which Pay Pal can't do.

Thanks for all your helpful insights. The majority of us, unlike Clive, know how hard you work and the quality info you put out. You're one of the best there is.

Brian

That's good. Get rid of that forced continuity nonsense and let's give people an option.

How would the copy read on a site that has Optional Continuity as opossed to Forced?

Customize your order or upgrade or free upgrade:

Product they get. (benefits and features etc.)

One time offer (now you can get 1 month free or 50% off or for $1... access to X Program)
Continuity program (benefits, features, additional bonuses, monthly cost, guarantee, cancel anytime etc.) check or uncheck, add or remove

You can test everything but if you don't do it you will never know.